Image result for THE RAPTURE PICS

Ok, so I am going to begin look at all the reasons I believe in the rapture and especially a pretribulation rapture.

  1. As previously taught, Paul and the Church of Thessalonica and indeed all the Churches that were planted before the book of Revelation was written, all of them had an imminent expectation that Christ would return in their day and deliver them from the persecutions and troubles that were brewing up and which they probably saw as tribulations and trials [mainly through the teachings of Paul] on His missionary journey’s. [However, we must remember that at this point John’s teaching on the tribulation period had not been developed!] All they knew was that there would be days of tribulation ahead that Jesus and Paul had taught about! The teaching about “The Great Tribulation” had not been revealed in its fullness! There were intimations in the writings of the Prophets especially in the books of Isaiah and Daniel and what jesus taught of corse in His Olivet discourse. So the point is as expressed before, the imminent pretribulation rapture teaching is not a new idea developed especially by John Nelson Darby in 1830!
  2. Even though the word HAPAZO [a forceful snatching away] isn’t in Revelation 4:1 I strongly believe the implication that John represents the raptured Church being taken up into heaven after the Church age ends is seen here! WHY? Simply because Jesus introduced the Church doctrine whilst He was the on earth! He revealed to His Apostles that something different was about to be conceived! A group of called out ones, a new elect people of God, a different branch on the olive tree which would be His body on earth whilst He the head returned to the Father! This Ecclesia was conceived on the day of Pentecost, and grew exponentially. Paul developed the present and future doctrine of the Church, Jesus the glorified King spoke through John [a present and future message] to and through these Churches and now, suddenly in chapter 4 onwards it’s gone! Disappeared FOREVER never to be seen [in that form again!] Why is the word Ecclesia not seen in Revelation 4 and 5? I believe it is because the Church has been received unto Christ and the Church has now been transformed metamorphosed, or been born again into His bride to be! Then from Chapter 6-19 the Church [Ecclesia] is not seen! WHY? Because the True Church is not on earth during the tribulation period of Jacob’s trouble. And the Church is not seen in Chapter 20 because she has returned as His Queen to rule and reign with Him on earth during the Millennial Kingdom period. And the Church is not seen in chapter 21-22 because she’s entered into eternity with Him to dwell in the New Jerusalem in the New heaven’s and New earth.
  3. The incomplete body/Bride: So, if we [the True Church] remain on the earth during the tribulation period to bring about a wonderful world for Christ to return to as some teach, then what is Christ, the Lamb of God going to be wed to in heaven? If we are the BODY of Christ which we are according to Paul [1 Corinthians 12:12-31] and the Bride of Christ:
    The Bride of Christ

    The first person to picture Christ as a groom was John the Baptist (John 3:29). As the forerunner of Christ, John knew that he must decrease while Jesus must increase. In his understanding, Christ is a groom and His bride is the messianic community. As the groom’s friend, John rejoiced to attend the heavenly wedding feast where Jesus and His bride are united. Every marriage should be cause for celebration, but the marriage between Christ and His church is something for the entire universe to celebrate for all eternity.

    The apostle Paul also used the metaphor of the church as Christ’s bride. In Ephesians 5:22-33, Paul compared the relationship between Christ and the church to that of a husband and wife. In this most perfect of relationships, Jesus Christ is the “head of the church,” while the church submits humbly to Him. He loves the church and sacrifices His own life for her (25). He sanctifies and cleanses the church through His Word (26). Jesus Christ presents her to Himself “in splendor,” unmarred by any imperfection (27).1


    Image result for bride of Christ pics

    Then the bride in heaven  will be incomplete! Some body parts will be missing because according to some,they are on earth going through the great tribulation. Now I know we can’t be exact in the chronology of Revelation 6-19, however, if some of the Church are on earth during the tribulation and Christ returns with His Queen at the parousia, then she is still incomplete! It makes no logical or theological sense, therefore to have the Church [ecclesia] in the tribulation period!


About wonderboy57

Let's make a start. I am a Christian but I guess that's pretty obvious. I am a gardener, builder by trade. I live in the Black country. I love 50s 60s 70s and 80s music. I play guitar and sing. I do open mic nights, I love growing veg and flowers, but I don't eat the flowers. Well I eat cauliflowers but that's not the same. If you need a good Gardener/bricklayer/landscaper and plasterer, not all in one go of course then contact me. My business is Dedicated In Gardens or D.I.G. Do you get it! Or do you dig it?
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  1. In spite of your protestations to the contrary, J. N. Darby is widely recognized to be the popularizer of this doctrine of “the rapture”. He is certainly not the originator of it, but he did make it popular. The “originator” of this teaching is a Scottish woman by the name of Margaret
    Macdonald who came to it apart from Scripture. I have no desire to reinvent the wheel here, but there are plenty of good sources that speak to this issue from a more sure foundation. Nevertheless, let me ask you two questions. 1) How many returns of Christ do you believe in? 2) Do you believe in the re-institution of blood sacrifices in the temple?

    • wonderboy57 says:

      Hi Mike, hope you are well? Thanks for your reply I appreciate your taking time out to ask them. I guess my point of view has been made obvious in these teachings, that Paul through divine revelation was the originator of the harpazo teaching [a forceful snatching away from imminent danger!!] [Latin rapio] this is clearly taught in 1st Thessalonians 4. So No need to cover that one as I believe scripture itself is THE more sure foundation. Of course, the big issue is interpretation and this is what I am doing in my teaching on this subject to put across how I see this teaching especially since there’s a massive increase [and especially in the states] of partial preterism, which is sneaking in over here and making an impact on lots of our Churches and I am giving my friends who are interested another viewpoint which I have a divine right to do and if I’m wrong then Jesus is my judge and no other. Regards your questions, again it boils down to interpretation of Scripture. I am a premillenialist and I believe in a pretribulation rapture [harpazo] so it is obvious what my answer to question 1 is! Yes of course as a pretiber I believe in two appearing’s according to Titus 2:13 where the King James and of course the original Greek correctly adds KAI [and] where as newer versions do not! So the Greek says “expecting the blessed hope [harpazo] AND the appearance [parousia] of the glory of the great God”. [Greek interlinear.] I personally believe He’s coming secretly in THE AIR for His Church [harpazo][the dead and the living] 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and He’s coming to the earth [parousia] where every eye shall see Him and and His feet shall again touch the earth according to Acts 1:11 and Zechariah 4:14 which is obviously future yet to be He’s come back down to the earth! Again this is my interpretation and viewpoint and I’ve studied all viewpoints and find this one more Biblical [but hey, that’s my take on it]. You may see it differently and that’s fine by me as long as we agree to disagree and keep the bond of love and peace in Christ Jesus. Regards question 2 I am not sure where that one came from? Nevertheless, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:4: he [the man of lawlessness] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. I believe this is future and not regards Emperor Titus in AD 70. Of course if the Jews do rebuild their 3rd temple then they will obviously reinstate the daily sacrifices, they are a stiff necked and foolish people. They rejected their Messiah the Lamb of God who once and for all times became the final propitiation for the sins of man, so if they do reinstate it as it seems they are working towards [even now], then it is blind folly. There can be no more sacrifice. He Christ Jesus, as you and I well know is the only true sacrifice for sin! A quick perusal of the book of Hebrews makes that very clear. So, I don’t personally believe in the the re-institution of the blood sacrifices, but I believe the Jews are stiff necked and foolish enough to do it. So, now I must get back to my teachings. Obviously I am very constrained to do that, so I won’t be getting into any lengthy debates or discussions from hereon that may detract me from my mission. However, why not set up a blog yourself and put out your points of view on daily or weekly posts? It’s a good spiritual exercise! Every blessing in Christ to you and yours. John

      • Thank you for your answers, John, and the time you took to do so. However, I would like to point out a few concerns with your view. First, I always find it strange when a person publishes on the internet in the public domain and then not want some response negative or otherwise. Also, let me say, for clarification, this is not about rejecting the “rapture” is only about rejecting the “rapture” as some secret return with other comings to follow. I would define rapture in a different way or maybe with additional information, but I do not reject the idea. Also, your view must somehow account for at least three returns if not more. This is a view that is foreign to any view of eschatology that has been taught in history prior to 1830. Consequently, yes, Church history does have something to say to this issue just has it has addressed issues such as the humanity of Christ, the deity of Christ, and The Trinity.

        As for your assertion that this is a secret return, that is not in keeping with the context of the text you believe teaches such a return. The context clearly says, “the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.” This is a very loud, physical, and public return thus hardly secret. While context argues for a public return, if we compare Scripture with Scripture (the true means of interpretation) we can see that a secret return is also contrary to the rest of the clear teaching of the Scriptures (Matt. 24:42-44; 2 Peter 3:10, 2 Thess. 1:7-10, Heb. 9:28; Rev 1:7). The fact that a trumpet is used only points out the public nature of this event (see Lev 25:9; Num 10:8; Jer 4:5; Matt 6:2). Prior to 1830, the church held to one personal, visible, personal, triumphant, and glorious return.

        I also find it amazing that you can believe in more than one return based on one use of the Greek conjunction “and” (καί). While I would agree with you that the conjunction there should be included in translation, I would disagree with you that its absence teaching anything different. First, not knowing the Greek Text you have referenced, your word ἁρπάζω, harpadzo nor παρουσία, parousia appear in the text of Titus 2:13. You have simply laid those concepts over the original text. Titus 2:13 is simply saying the same thing with different words. The “our blessed hope” of v.13 is the same as “the appearance of the glory of the great God”. It really is as simple as saying “I am waiting for my mom and the coming of my father’s wife.” The Scriptures certainly speak of two comings, but it is the first coming (which has obviously already happened) and the second coming which is the parousia of the future.

        Finally, When shall the saints be raptured from earth to meet their Lord? When shall believers be “caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,” ever to be with Him (I Thess. 4:17)? The passage just cited makes it clear that the rapture coincides with (1) the resurrection of the saints (vv. 13-16, and “together with them” in v. 17), and (2) the coming of the Lord from heaven (v. 16). Scripture elsewhere clarifies when these two events shall occur.

        First, the resurrection of the saints will occur at the coming of Christ, which itself brings the end (I Cor. 15:23-24). Christ declares that he will raise us again on the last day (John 6:39-40, 44, 54). Moreover, the saints and the wicked shall exist together on earth until the “harvest” day of God’s judgment on the “tares” (Matt. 13:24-30); the redeemed and the wicked will not be separated from each other until the end of the age (Matt. 13:47-50). Therefore, the resurrection of the saints must coincide with the resurrection of the wicked (one following closely upon the other); when the believers come forth unto the resurrection of life, at that time all in the tombs will as well come forth, including the wicked who are raised to judgment (John 5:26-29). The point is, that there is no significant gap between the rapture of the saints, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the resurrection and judgment of the wicked, and the end of the age.

      • wonderboy57 says:

        Hi Mike thank you for your reply, your time and your thoughts. Again, regards not wanting to get into debates is simple, it is time consuming and I don’t have time because I believe time is very short![GO FISH] Hence my oft used statement ‘GO FISH!’ As an american you know what it means, go check it out for yourself or as we Brits say, do your own hoof work cuz I ain’t gonna do it for you. Hence the reason I don’t get into debates but still publish my works, cuz it gets people thinking and I simply say, GO FISH! Obviously you have certainly done that and I respect your view points but strongly disagree with them and I guess they always will. I’m not trying to change your mind and you certainly won’t change mine. In the words of Nehemiah 6:3 “I am doing a great work and cannot come down. Why should the work stop while I leave to come down to [meet with] you?” [Amp] Sorry, but that is the way it is. I wish you well with your pursuit of theology and doctrine, but I must press on with mine. Every blessing In Christ Jesus. John

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